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0-16 Browns vs. the 0-16 Lions
It was asked previously on this sub who was the worse team - Hue Jackson's 0-16 Browns or the OG 0-16 Lions. If these two teams played, who would lose? A lot of people jumped to the support (if you can really call it that) of the Lion's 0-16 cred, and said 100% if somehow the Browns and the Lions were to duke it out, the Browns would finally be able to record a win. Sadly, we can't answer this question, because age is, in sports, more than a number, unless of course your trainer is Skip Bayless, in which case its just a matter of laying of some cigars. Sadly for me, Whatifsports hasn't updated their rosters to 2017 yet, so I cannot just sim a couple games between the two clubs and make my usual uneducated shitpost. I'm gonna have to dig into some numbers. There really isn't any magic bullet statistic to tell you whether one team is worse than the other - record isn't useful in this case and it isn't uncommon for record to be a shitty measure of skill anyway, so I'll be using a lot of different measures to put the two 0fer clubs in perspective - ranging from strength of schedule to the caliber of players. Quality Loses: For the sake of this discussion, a "Quality Loss" is a loss of one score or less. (I'm counting 8 points as one score) Here's a quick recap of the Lions' 2008 season, with such 'quality losses' in italics: Opponent Score @ Atlanta Falcons L 21-34 Green Bay Packers L 25-48 @ San Francisco 49ers L 13-31 Chicago Bears L7-34 @ Minnesota Vikings L 10-12 @ Houston Texans L 21-28 @ Washington Redskins L 17-25 @ Chicago Bears L 23-27 Jacksonville Jaguars L 14-38 @ Carolina Panthers L 22-31 Tampa Bay Buccaneers L 20-38 Tennessee Titans L 10-47 Minnesota Vikings L 16-20 @ Indianapolis Colts L 21-31 New Orleans Saints L 7-42 @ Green Bay Packers L 21-31 Now, lets do the same with the Cleveland Browns: Opponent Score Pittsburgh Steelers L 18-21 @ Baltimore Ravens L 10-24 @ Indianapolis Colts L 28-31 Cincinatti Bengals L 7-31 New York Jets L 14-17 @ Houston Texans L 17-33 Tennessee Titans L 9-12 (OT) Minnesota Vikings L 16-33 @ Detroit Lions L 24-38 Jacksonville Jaguars L 7-19 @ Cincinatti Bengals L 16-30 @Los Angeles Chargers L 10-19 Green Bay Packers L 21-27 (OT) Baltimore Ravens L 10-27 @ Chicago Bears L 3-20 @ Pittsburgh Steelers L 24-28 The Browns totaled 6 quality losses, the Lions totaled 5. The Browns edge the Lions out on volume in this category. They also took two of their games to overtime - the Lions were never able to get that far. But what if instead of just compiling one-score games, we compiled point differential? Browns had a differential of -166 and the Lions -249. This actually makes the Browns look better then the quality losses scale. The average Browns loss on the way to 0-16 was by 10.3 points - a rather close game. The Lions on average lost by 15.5. Basically - they both lost the same number of games, but the Browns seemingly were more competitive in them, versus the Lions who got blown out a bit more. But thats only part of the story - who were they playing? Strength of Schedule Strength of Schedule is important to consider because going 0-16 versus the top teams in the league isn't nearly as embarrassing as losing all 16 games to the worst teams (excluding yourself, of course). So how do the Browns and the Lions schedules stack up? The Lions schedule went a combined in 2008 143-113, meaning they faced a schedule with a win percentage of .559. The Browns, on the other hand, faced a 120-136 (.469) schedule. For another metric, 5 of the Lions' opponents made it to the playoffs. All of them were one-and-done. The Browns schedule contained 4 playoff teams, with three of them recording wins in the playoffs (Minnesota/Tennesse: 1; Jacksonville: 2). Obviously, the Browns had the easier schedule, making this a little closer contest then point differentials and "quality wins" would have made it seem. The Lions had worse results, but they played tougher teams. I think at this point, the Lions are still slightly worse, but we're going to have to look at more. Offensive Stats In 2017 the Cleveland Browns produced 4942 (308.9 y/g) Yards of offense, making them the 24th offense in the league based on yardage total. 3328 of these came through the air, while 1714 came on the ground, meaning in the average game for Cleveland there were 201.8 pass yards and 107.1 rush yards. The '08 Lions offense, on the other hand, was 30th in the league with 4292 total yards (249.1 y/g), with 2960 total pass yards (185 y/g) and 1332 rush yards (83.3 y/g). Yardage wise, Detroit had a worse rushing and passing attack. In terms of quarterbacks, Duante Culpepper (5), Dan Orlovsky (7), and Jon Kitna (4) combined to start Detroit's games, and together produced a stat line of 3160 Yards, 17:19 TD/INT, and a 55.4 Comp%. For comparison, Deshone Kizer in 15 starts threw for 2894 Yards, a 11:22 TD/INT ratio, and a 53.6 Comp%. Kizer is most certainly worse than the Lions' trio. Supporting cast is a different story. The Lions' leading receiver in 2008 was Calvin Johnson with 1331 Yards on 78 catches. He was targeted more than twice as much as the next guy, Shawn MacDonald, and amassed around four times as many yards. On the other hand, the Browns' leading receiver in 2008 was Duke Johnson (a running back), who, at 693 yards, had a little over half the receiving yards that Johnson had in '08. The next best total was 395 by TE Seth Devalve. Some of this can be chalked up to Kizer being abysmal. Rushing wise, the Lions' Kevin Smith rushed for 976 Yards, while Isaiah Crowell and Duke Johnson ran for 853 and 348, respectively. Cleveland definitely has the better running backs, but despite the total yardage numbers, it would seem talent-wise Detroit may have had better passing. Defensive Stats In 2008 the Detroit Lions yielded a league-worst 6470 yards. And they weren't just bending - no, they were full on breaking for an also league-worst 517. For comparison, the 2017 Browns were 31st in the league in yards allowed, at 5250 Yards, and 31st in points allowed, at 410. The '08 Lions defense not only is worse than the Browns, it isn't even comparable. I'm not even going to bother going into player statistics here. It isn't worth my time. The Lions' defense was horrendous. Coaching Rod Marinelli was the coach of the Detroit Lions in 2008. Hired in 2006, he was fired the day after the 0-16 season concluded, and hasn't had a head coaching gig since, currently serving the Cowboys as Defensive Coordinator. Hue Jackson - who went 1-15 last year and 0-16 - is currently slated to remain head coach of the Browns. Interesting, Marinelli actually has a slightly better win percentage at .208 than Hue Jackson at .188. This is pretty miniscule, however - the difference is literally 1 win (10-38 vs 9-39). I'm not going to award an edge to anyone here. Conclusions The Browns performed better versus an easier schedule, had a better rush attack, an arguably worse pass attack, but a measurably better defense. Take the 2017 Browns and place them on a neutral field against the 2008 Lions (and disallow ties, lest they find away to both stay winless), they probably should win. tl;dr: The Browns suck but the Lions suck more. EDIT: Additional fun fact: both 0-16 teams were 4-0 in the preseason. The undefeated Dolphins and the 16-0 Patriots were 3-3 and 2-2 in the preseason, respectively. Moral of the story: lose in the preseason if you want to live. submitted by /u/TotallyNotMiaKhalifa to r/nfl [link] [comments]
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reddit.com |
TotallyNotMiaKhalifa |
Feb 10, 2018 |
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Game of the Week (Lions vs. Patriots), Irrelevant Game of the Week (Bears vs. Bucs), and who to root for: Week 12
There wasn't much interest the last time I posted this, so I don't know whether it's worth it to keep doing these, but I may as well post the updated version for this week's games. edit: Turns out that previous post had fallen into the spam filter. edit: Added weather forecasts per request. Let me know if you think it's worthwhile or just a distraction. "Game of the Week" At this point in the season, "Game of the Week" as I've been defining it (highest impact on which teams make the playoffs) begins to diverge from other measures you might use to define the most important game of the week. The teams fighting to get into the playoffs these days are the upper middle class of the NFL—those just on the border between making the playoffs and missing them. Meanwhile, the elite teams of the NFL have their eyes set on homefield advantage and bye weeks. Fortunately, Mike Beuoy has begun breaking down the impact of games by their effect on seeding. Moreover, in an earlier post, he even broke down the effect of the various seeds on a team's likelihood of making the Super Bowl, giving us a reasonable way to weight seeding in order to incorporate it into a single ranking. Therefore, this week, for the first time, "Game of the Week" takes seeding into account. You can think of it as the game with the biggest influence on the Super Bowl picture. Notable Games This Week: Title Game High-level Play Closely Matched Matters Most to Any Single Team Matters Most to Both Teams Playing Affects Largest Number of Teams Highest Impact on Post-season Field Highest Impact on Division Winners Highest Impact: First-Round Bye Highest Impact: Top Seed Highest Impact Overall Chiefs‑Raiders ✓ Ravens‑Saints ✓ ✓ ✓ Lions‑Patriots ✓ ✓ ✓ ✓ ✓ ✓ Cardinals‑Seahawks ✓ ✓ Dolphins‑Broncos #1 All Games of Week 12, Ranked by Influence on Super Bowl Picture1 Away Team Home Team Influence on Super Bowl Picture2 Teams Rooting for Away Team, ordered by how much they care3 Teams Rooting for Home Team, ordered by how much they care3 Betting Line4 Weather Forecast4 Game Time5 Detroit Lions (7‑3) New England Patriots (8‑2) 24% (19%) DET, DEN, MIA, IND, PIT, KC, BAL, CIN, HOU, BUF, CLE, SD NE, GB, PHI, DAL, ,SEA, ARI, SF, CHI, NO Patriots by 7 MOSTLY CLOUDY, WIND 6-11. GAME TEMP 43, RH 73% WIND CHILL 38 1:00 Arizona Cardinals (9‑1) Seattle Seahawks (6‑4) 20% (16%) ARI, CHI, GB, PHI, DAL, SF, DET SEA, GB, PHI, DAL, SF, DET Seahawks by 7 MOSTLY CLOUDY, 60% CHANCE SHOWERS. WIND 10-15. GAME TEMP 48, RH 86% 4:05 Miami Dolphins (6‑4) Denver Broncos (7‑3) 18% (14%) MIA, KC, IND, PIT, BAL, CIN, SD, NE, HOU, CLE DEN, NE, BUF, CLE, HOU, KC, IND, PIT, CIN, SD, BAL Broncos by 7 PARTLY CLOUDY, WIND 12-22, GUSTY. GAME TEMP 39, RH 62% WIND CHILL 30 4:25 Green Bay Packers (7‑3) Minnesota Vikings (4‑6) 18% (12%) GB DET, DAL, PHI, ARI, SEA, SF, MIN, NO Packers by 9 CLOUDY, 60% CHANCE RAIN. NORTHWEST WIND 5-10. GAME TEMP 39, RH 79% WIND CHILL 33 (FOGGY) 1:00 Kansas City Chiefs (7‑3) Oakland Raiders (0‑10) 14% (11%) KC DEN, NE, CIN, IND, BAL, SD, MIA, HOU, PIT, CLE Chiefs by 7 TNF Dallas Cowboys (7‑3) New York Giants (3‑7) 12% (11%) DAL GB, PHI, DET, ARI, SEA, SF, CHI, NYG, STL, WAS Cowboys by 4 CLOUDY, 60% CHANCE RAIN. WIND 10-20. GAME TEMP 49, RH 86% SNF Baltimore Ravens (6‑4) New Orleans Saints (4‑6) 11% (10%) BAL, ATL, CAR NO, PIT, CIN, KC, MIA, DEN, HOU, CLE, SD, IND Saints by 3 MNF Cincinnati Bengals (6‑3‑1) Houston Texans (5‑5) 10% (10%) CIN, IND HOU, PIT, DEN, BAL, CLE, NE, IND Texans by 2.5 PARTLY SUNNY, WIND 9-14. GAME TEMP 77, RH 66% HEAT INDEX 80 1:00 Cleveland Browns (6‑4) Atlanta Falcons (4‑6) 7% (6%) CLE, NO, CAR ATL, PIT, CIN, KC, MIA, HOU, BAL, SD Falcons by 3 1:00 Tennessee Titans (2‑8) Philadelphia Eagles (7‑3) 9% (5%) DAL, DET, ARI, GB, SF, SEA, CHI, STL, MIN PHI Eagles by 11.5 MOSTLY CLOUDY, 30% CHANCE SHOWERS. WIND 9-14. GAME TEMP 47, RH 79% 1:00 Washington Redskins (3‑7) San Francisco 49ers (6‑4) 6% (5%) ARI, PHI, DAL, DET, SEA, GB, CHI, MIN, WAS SF 49ers by 9 4:25 Jacksonville Jaguars(1‑9) Indianapolis Colts (6‑4) 6% (3%) HOU, DEN, MIA, PIT, NE, CIN, BAL, KC, TEN IND Colts by 13.5 CLOUDY, 70% CHANCE SHOWER/STORMS LATE. WIND 10-20. GAME TEMP 51, RH 83% (LUCAS OIL STADIUM ROOF MAY CLOSE IN WET WEATHER) 1:00 Saint Louis Rams (4‑6) San Diego Chargers (6‑4) 2% (2%) KC, CLE, CIN, STL, BAL, DEN, BUF SD, SF Chargers by 5.5 MOSTLY SUNNY, WIND 5-10. GAME TEMP 64, RH 58% 4:05 New York Jets (2‑8) Buffalo Bills (5‑5) .4% (.4%) MIA, KC BUF Bills by 2.5 MNF Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2‑8) Chicago Bears (4‑6) .01% (.01%) TB CHI Bears by 4 CLOUDY, 70% CHANCE RAIN. WIND 12-17. GAME TEMP 52, RH 86% 1:00 1. Source: Mike Beuoy at fivethirtyeight.com, who runs a weekly Monte Carlo simulation of the remaining season. The ranking his simulation is based on, along with the current projected probabilities of the season's result for each team can be found here. The simulation is run 50,000 times. Ties are neglected. The numbers appearing in the above table are the results of a bit more calculation done on the data he provides; hopefully I didn't mess up anything about the math! 2. The first percentage represents the cumulative impact a game has on the Super Bowl picture—i.e. the difference between the picture if Team A wins the game vs. if Team B wins the game—taking seeding into account. The unit is a single team's chance of making the super bowl. Thus, for instance the expected impact of a conference championship game will always be 200%, since if Team A wins, it will have a 100% chance of playing in the Super Bowl and Team B will have a 0% chance, and vice versa if Team B wins. Since the Super Bowl involves two teams, the theoretical limit of this number would be 400% (in practice, this limit is unreachable, as no single game ever completely determines both teams playing in the Super Bowl). The number in parentheses reflects an adjustment based on the odds of each team's winning, to yield what you might call the "Expected Impact" of the game. This decreases the importance of games where an upset would have a large impact on the Super Bowl picture, but such an upset is unlikely to happen. The more lopsided the odds (i.e. the less likely an upset), the greater difference this makes; if the odds are even, it makes no difference at all. For consistency's sake, in calculating this, I used the odds used by the simulation; in most cases these are virtually the same as the current line, but there are occasional exceptions when the line has moved since the simulation was carried out. 3. In a few cases, some teams can justify rooting in either direction of a matchup: for instance, if one team's victory leads to a better chance of making the playoffs but the other team's victory leads to a better chance of a higher seed. In such cases, the rooting team is listed normally on the side of the team whose victory is overall better for its chances of appearing in the Super Bowl, but also appears in small italics on the other side, to show that it has something to gain from that side's victory as well. 4. Source: vegasinsider.com. 5. Boldfaced for the most important game of each time slot. Points of Interest GAMES MOST IMPORTANT/AFFECTS LARGEST NUMBER OF TEAMS/MATTERS MOST TO BOTH TEAMS PLAYING: Detroit vs. New England, a potential Super Bowl preview, affects most of the teams in the NFL (21) one way or another. Not even the highest-level game of the day according to the ranking used for the simulation (Miami vs. Denver gets that honor), when the standings are taken into account, it's the game that matters most, as both these teams are heavy contenders for their divisions, the top two seeds, and even (especially in Detroit's case) the wild card race. When seeding is taken into account, it's the most important game of the day by a significant margin. Another factor in this game's importance is that it's an interconference game. Interconference games tend to be especially significant for two reasons: 1) Since they affect both conferences, they have the potential to affect more teams. 2) The teams affected have no ambivalence about who they want to win: AFC teams want the NFC team to win, and NFC teams want the AFC team to win. By contrast, in a game like Miami-Denver, teams have a foot in both camps: a Miami win gives them a better shot at a higher seed, but a Denver win gives them a better shot at making the playoffs at all. Effectively, that means the outcome is relatively less important to them, since either way it goes, they gain something and they lose something. MOST IMPORTANT TO ANY SINGLE TEAM: It seems absurd to talk about the team with the best record in the NFL as going under the radar, but that's exactly what the Arizona Cardinals have been doing. You could have made a lot of money betting on them week after week, because they keep winning, but the market keeps doubting if they can do it again. This week, they're again heavy underdogs, in their game against the Seattle Seahawks. Part of the problem is that they're starting a backup quarterback. They've managed to win games week after week, but Vegas doubts that they can keep the current pace up down the stretch. So, despite the large lead they have, not only in their division, but even for the top seed, this is a very important game for their Super Bowl chances. Winning it will strengthen their lead in the race for seeding and make it all the more likely that, even if they drop a couple of games at the end, they still win that race. According to the simulation, this game makes virtually a 10% difference to the Cardinals odds of making the Super Bowl. MOST IMPORTANT TO PLAYOFF FIELD: In past weeks, these posts only took the overall playoff field into account, without considering seeding. By this measure, the most important game this week would be Baltimore vs. New Orleans, between two teams that aren't really in contention for the top two seeds, but part of the tight race for the lower seeds. The divisions they play in, the AFC North and NFC South, respectively, are the two most competitive divisions in the NFL. LEAST IMPORTANT: The least important game of the week is Chicago vs. Tampa Bay, between two teams that are almost out of the playoff race—but this game still matters to both teams. Remarkably, not a single NFC team has given up on the playoffs at this point in the season. TEAMS MOST POPULAR: The most popular team this week is the New York Giants, which most of the NFC is hoping can knock Dallas down a peg. (The Raiders, equally popular before Thursday Night's game, came through for their fans!) MOST INVESTED: The team most invested in the games this week is Cincinnati, currently in the running for pretty much every possible seed in the playoffs (and not certain to make any of them). The Bengals have an interest in literally every game involving an AFC team except for Jets-Bills. LOOKING TOWARDS NEXT YEAR: While the Oakland Raiders are the only team thus far that has been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs, the Jaguars and Jets are both virtually out of the playoff race. By contrast, every single NFC team has at least a .1% chance of making the playoffs. Interestingly, while the Titans still have an interest in the playoffs, they are more concerned with Indianapolis losing than winning their own game. Previous Posts Week 11.5 Week 8.5 Week 8 Week 7.5 Week 7 submitted by /u/TheEquivocator to r/nfl [link] [comments]
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TheEquivocator |
Nov 23, 2014 |